Herbert (Herb) and Ralph converse about ideals and the origins of ideals:
Herb: Got a question for you, Ralph.
Ralph: What’s that?
Herb: Do you think all ideals are imposed?
Ralph: That’s a tough one. Let me think…No, I don’t think all ideals are imposed because I can set my own ideals. But a thought just occurred to me that some ideals, maybe most ideals, are imposed. It’s just difficult to say who does the imposing.
Herb: My thoughts exactly. But what ideals are truly yours?
Ralph: Well, I guess I’d say personal ideals.
Herb: Namely?
Ralph: Losing weight to become Adonis-like. Yes, I want to look svelte and muscular. That’s my ideal.
Herb: Ha. But why? Aren’t you simply following a cultural ideal imposed by the worlds of fashion, art, theater, magazines, Hollywood, gym owners, and sports? Why is an Adonis-like body better than, say, a moderate plumpness with a bit of flab that stores fat for hard times? What of the ideal body shapes during times of disease and famine as depicted in “robust” Rubenesque naked women revealing that they are better fed than the rest? Plumpness once meant “healthy.” So, the ideal figure of one era becomes the shunned ideal in another era. Haven’t you noticed that there are those in the media and fashion who are attempting to reimpose a bit of plumpness in the ideal shape? Note the difference in model shapes between the 2022 Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition and previous editions. I suppose that begs another question about ideals: Can a group of influencers alter the society’s ideal of the svelte body? I guess we’ll have to wait to see.
Ralph: Good point. I hadn’t thought of how I might have been influenced to acquire an ideal.
Herb: I think of how societal ideals, say an ideal like heroism, might have originated in stories passed through many generations. Let me give you an example. During the American Civil War, soldiers on both sides were inspired to fight courageously in support of a cause. The idea of a brave soldier committed to fighting in the face of extreme danger was a significant motivator. Stonewall Jackson leading from the front, so to speak; George Custer leading the charge at Gettysburg. This is what Lieutenant General James Longstreet wrote about Pickett’s charge:
“Pickett’s lines being nearer, m the impact was heaviest upon them. Most of the field officers were killed or wounded… General Armistead, of the second line, spread his steps to supply the paces of fallen comrades. his colors [flag] cut down, with a volley against the bristling line of bayonets, he put his cap open this sword to guide the storm. The enemy’s massing, enveloping numbers held the struggle until the noble Armistead fell beside the wheels of the enemy’s battery.”
Now that’s the standard ideal of military heroism, isn’t it? Achilles and Hector fearlessly facing each other.
As such, dying in battle was a noble act, though the heroic ideal usually meant a selfless sacrifice of life. This is what Sergeant W. P. L. Muir of the Fifteenth Iowa Regiment wrote about participating in the Battle of Shiloh:
“We were all spoiling for a fight, and there was no little amount of grumbling done by members of the regiment on account of the fear that we would not be there in time to take part in the battle.”
No doubt Muir, having already experienced battle, knew the dangers of the fighting unlike those Union soldiers who fled in panic at the Battle of First Manassas. Those rookie soldiers went into the fight thinking it was some kind of show but came out of the fight in an unheroic retreat. As Union diarist George Templeton Strong wrote of First Manassas, “Today will be known as Black Monday. We are utterly and disgracefully routed, beaten, and whipped by secessionists.”
It’s difficult to say where the ideal of death in battle came from. Was it something Homer wrote in The Iliad? Certainly, that epic is filled with acts of heroism that might have led to the belief “Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.” It is sweet and proper to die for one’s country. I would guess that every war since The Iliad and probably before had its heroic ideals that today we see in every action hero of the big screen, those images from books and movies motivating young men to achieve the heroic ideal.
Ralph: Yes, I guess the stories told over centuries perpetuated the ideal. Of course, those “ideal sacrifices” on the battlefield did run against modern realism: The fruitless sacrifices of the young dying for the causes of old men; maybe among others Crane’s The Red Badge of Courage and the poetry of World War I’s Wilfred Owen set in motion an anti-heroic ideal that modern war movies often depict by showing the randomness of death during battle.
Herb: So, I come back to my original question about the imposition of ideals. Since people act on ideals—dieting and exercising as you point out—shouldn’t each person ask about the origin of those ideals? And I’m not just talking about war or body image. All ideals that motivate should be subject to examination. Social ideals, political ideals, religious ideals, and even psychological ideals—all those ideals. Equitable society? An ideal, isn’t it? What’s its origin? Is it imposed? Can it be imposed by subtle and constant exposure, creeping its way into the common psyche? What’s the consequence of its imposition? And the same goes for those other ideals that motivate us.
Ralph: Geez, Herb, can’t you just talk about sports? Now I have to go through the day wondering whether my motivations aren’t someone else’s.
Herb: Got a question for you, Ralph.
Ralph: What’s that?
Herb: Do you think all ideals are imposed?
Ralph: That’s a tough one. Let me think…No, I don’t think all ideals are imposed because I can set my own ideals. But a thought just occurred to me that some ideals, maybe most ideals, are imposed. It’s just difficult to say who does the imposing.
Herb: My thoughts exactly. But what ideals are truly yours?
Ralph: Well, I guess I’d say personal ideals.
Herb: Namely?
Ralph: Losing weight to become Adonis-like. Yes, I want to look svelte and muscular. That’s my ideal.
Herb: Ha. But why? Aren’t you simply following a cultural ideal imposed by the worlds of fashion, art, theater, magazines, Hollywood, gym owners, and sports? Why is an Adonis-like body better than, say, a moderate plumpness with a bit of flab that stores fat for hard times? What of the ideal body shapes during times of disease and famine as depicted in “robust” Rubenesque naked women revealing that they are better fed than the rest? Plumpness once meant “healthy.” So, the ideal figure of one era becomes the shunned ideal in another era. Haven’t you noticed that there are those in the media and fashion who are attempting to reimpose a bit of plumpness in the ideal shape? Note the difference in model shapes between the 2022 Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition and previous editions. I suppose that begs another question about ideals: Can a group of influencers alter the society’s ideal of the svelte body? I guess we’ll have to wait to see.
Ralph: Good point. I hadn’t thought of how I might have been influenced to acquire an ideal.
Herb: I think of how societal ideals, say an ideal like heroism, might have originated in stories passed through many generations. Let me give you an example. During the American Civil War, soldiers on both sides were inspired to fight courageously in support of a cause. The idea of a brave soldier committed to fighting in the face of extreme danger was a significant motivator. Stonewall Jackson leading from the front, so to speak; George Custer leading the charge at Gettysburg. This is what Lieutenant General James Longstreet wrote about Pickett’s charge:
“Pickett’s lines being nearer, m the impact was heaviest upon them. Most of the field officers were killed or wounded… General Armistead, of the second line, spread his steps to supply the paces of fallen comrades. his colors [flag] cut down, with a volley against the bristling line of bayonets, he put his cap open this sword to guide the storm. The enemy’s massing, enveloping numbers held the struggle until the noble Armistead fell beside the wheels of the enemy’s battery.”
Now that’s the standard ideal of military heroism, isn’t it? Achilles and Hector fearlessly facing each other.
As such, dying in battle was a noble act, though the heroic ideal usually meant a selfless sacrifice of life. This is what Sergeant W. P. L. Muir of the Fifteenth Iowa Regiment wrote about participating in the Battle of Shiloh:
“We were all spoiling for a fight, and there was no little amount of grumbling done by members of the regiment on account of the fear that we would not be there in time to take part in the battle.”
No doubt Muir, having already experienced battle, knew the dangers of the fighting unlike those Union soldiers who fled in panic at the Battle of First Manassas. Those rookie soldiers went into the fight thinking it was some kind of show but came out of the fight in an unheroic retreat. As Union diarist George Templeton Strong wrote of First Manassas, “Today will be known as Black Monday. We are utterly and disgracefully routed, beaten, and whipped by secessionists.”
It’s difficult to say where the ideal of death in battle came from. Was it something Homer wrote in The Iliad? Certainly, that epic is filled with acts of heroism that might have led to the belief “Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.” It is sweet and proper to die for one’s country. I would guess that every war since The Iliad and probably before had its heroic ideals that today we see in every action hero of the big screen, those images from books and movies motivating young men to achieve the heroic ideal.
Ralph: Yes, I guess the stories told over centuries perpetuated the ideal. Of course, those “ideal sacrifices” on the battlefield did run against modern realism: The fruitless sacrifices of the young dying for the causes of old men; maybe among others Crane’s The Red Badge of Courage and the poetry of World War I’s Wilfred Owen set in motion an anti-heroic ideal that modern war movies often depict by showing the randomness of death during battle.
Herb: So, I come back to my original question about the imposition of ideals. Since people act on ideals—dieting and exercising as you point out—shouldn’t each person ask about the origin of those ideals? And I’m not just talking about war or body image. All ideals that motivate should be subject to examination. Social ideals, political ideals, religious ideals, and even psychological ideals—all those ideals. Equitable society? An ideal, isn’t it? What’s its origin? Is it imposed? Can it be imposed by subtle and constant exposure, creeping its way into the common psyche? What’s the consequence of its imposition? And the same goes for those other ideals that motivate us.
Ralph: Geez, Herb, can’t you just talk about sports? Now I have to go through the day wondering whether my motivations aren’t someone else’s.
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